Mages Guild Titles, continued

[ava]

Greetings Mages!

It looks like the poll about our guildtitles is over, and there isn't a very conclusive result. So I thought I would post here the ideas that different guild members have come up with so far. It is still going to require a little bit of work, I think, to find something that everyone (or at least most people) are happy with, but it will be easier to do this if maybe we all write down here which titles we like and which we don't like so much, so that maybe the following three lists can be combined into one fantastic list! Or, of course, new ideas and new titles can be suggested.

So following you will see three big lists of titles, from Miragul, Lothaine and me. Some people have already written a little bit about what they like or don't like, but it would be great if everyone can post something here about their thoughts on the title suggestions so far. If you are specific it will be more helpful (i.e. rather than "I like the first list best" maybe you could say "I like these titles from the first list, but these from the second and those from the third").

Thanks!

Ava

Main Guild (^w)	Serenity (^C)	Covenhouse (^R)	Labyrinth (^O)
GR0: Newly Enrolled
GR1: Scroll Keeper
GR5: Initiate Mage
GR10: Fledgling Mage
GR15: Trainee Mage
GR20: Rookie Mage
GR25: Novice Mage
GR30: Neophyte Mage	Initiate of the Leaf	Initiate of Sorcery	Initiate of Parchment
GR35: Student Mage	Initiate of the Sapling	Initiate of Affliction	Initiate of Tomes
GR40: Capable Mage	Initiate of the Forest	Initiate of Dread	Initiate of Insight
GR45: Deft Mage	Initiate of the Earth	Initiate of Heresy	Initiate of Theory
GR50: Skilled Mage	Novice of the Leaf	Novice of Sorcery	Novice of Parchment
GR55: Adept Mage	Novice of the Sapling	Novice of Affliction	Novice of Tomes
GR60: Sophomore Mage	Novice of the Forest	Novice of Dread	Novice of Insight
GR65: Learned Mage	Novice of the Earth	Novice of Heresy	Novice of Theory
GR70: Talented Mage	Scholar of the Leaf	Scholar of Sorcery	Scholar of Parchment
GR75: Gifted Mage	Scholar of the Sapling	Scholar of Affliction	Scholar of Tomes
GR80: Accomplished Mage	Scholar of the Forest	Scholar of Dread	Scholar of Insight
GR85: Experienced Mage	Scholar of the Earth	Scholar of Heresy	Scholar of Theory
GR90: Proficient Mage	Master of the Leaf	Master of Sorcery	Master of Parchment
GR95: Devoted Mage	Master of the Sapling	Master of Affliction	Master of Tomes
GR100: Senior Mage	Master of the Forest	Master of Dread	Master of Insight
GR105: Expert Mage	Master of the Earth	Master of Heresy	Master of Theory
GR110: Master Mage	Sage of the Leaf	Sage of Sorcery	Sage of Parchment
GR115: Supreme Mage	Sage of the Sapling	Sage of Affliction	Sage of Tomes
GR120: Grand Mage	Sage of the Forest	Sage of Dread	Sage of Insight
GR125: Veteran Mage	Sage of the Earth	Sage of Heresy	Sage of Theory
GR130: Honored Mage	Preserver of Life	Avatar of Sin	Grand Erudite
GR135: Revered Mage	Nature's Blessing	Scourge of the Weak	Lord Archivist
GR140: Legendary Mage	Herald of Creation	Harbinger of Death	Keeper of Mysteries
GR145: Transcendent Mage	Keeper of the Wild	Lord of the Risen	Magister of Secrets
GR150: Arch Mage	Serenity's Chosen	Warlock of the Damned	Sovereign of the Arcane

GR	Core (Pre-sub ^W | Post ^w)	Serenity (^G)	Covenhouse (^R)	Labyrinth (^C)
0	New Enrollee
1	Initiate Mage
5	Apprentice Mage
10	Runesmith
15	Runemaster
20	Adept of Staves
25	Seeker of Paths
30	Dragon Tamer	Sapling Tamer	Demon Tamer	Lore Tamer
35	Elemental Acolyte	Initiate of the Leaf	Initiate of the Pentagram	Initiate of the Library
40	Elemental Disciple	Nature's Ally	Snake Charmer	Fortune Teller
45	Enchanter	Truth Speaker	Hex Spitter	Bookworm
50	Elevated Mage	Botanist	Scourge of the Weak	Wordsmith
55	Hand of the Elements	Green Thumb	Occultist	Librarian
60	Expert Enchanter	Pioneer	Bone Carver	Archivist
65	Arcane Scholar	Totem Carver	Corrupt Vassal	Astrologer
70	Arcane Savant	Naturalistic Scholar	Scholar of Sorcery	Scholastic Prodigy
75	Enchanting Prodigy	Prodigy of the Forest	Prodigy of Affliction	Rune Carver
80	Mana Font	Seed Bearer	Plague Bearer	Torch Bearer
85	Thaumaturgist	Star Gazer	Death Gazer	Void Gazer
90	Master of Staves	Vineweaver	Soulweaver	Fateweaver
95	Upper Spellweaver	Omencaster	Shadowcaster	Battlecaster
100	Evoker	Nature's Charge	Dreadknight	Magus
105	Sigilist	Arboreal Spirit	Devil's Advocate	Chancellor
110	Universalist	Kahuna	Warlock	Conjurer
115	Mystic	Soothsayer	Haruspex	Diviner
120	High Mage	High Seer	High Blasphemer	High Prophet
125	Seeker of Prophecy	Preserver of Life	Preserver of Profane	Preserver of Knowledge
130	Circle Sage	Feral One	Unholy One	Learned One
135	Inquisitor	Druid	Reaper	Fate's Architect
140	Keeper of Prophecy	Keeper of the Wild	Necromancer	Keeper of Mysteries
145	Elder of the Circle	Nature's Warden	Lord of the Risen	Sovereign of Secrets
150	Magister	Herald	Harbinger	Provost

[Dierdre Deschain]

Dierdre walks up to the alcove in the library and peruses the lists before her, tapping her chin lightly with a fingertip. After pondering the information for quite some time, she takes out a broken quill found on the causeway and a scrap of parchment. She narrows her eyes in thought and a slight frown forms between her brows as she bends over the table provided to note down the sum of her thoughts*

These are my thoughts on the guild titles...
First list.. I find it to be a bit repetitive.

Second list.. I like the simply stated titles *a faint sheen of sweat appears to break out on her brow for just a moment as she sees the list of titles for those of the covenhouse, then she quickly moves on*

Third list.. even though it is wordier than the second list, it does leave more to the imagination.. such as GR 95, the "Guardian" titles, Nature, Knowledge, and Nightmares, there are so many ways that those titles can be roleplayed: How do you guard nature? What will you do to protect, preserve, or gain knowledge? Whose nightmares do you guard.. do you keep them in or out? The possibilities are endless, or nearly so.

So, overall, I say I like the third list better. The titles seem to sound more regal or noble as well as descriptive.

Just my two gold pieces...

[juko]

I like the second set of titles.

[ava]

Thanks Dierdre and Juko for your feedback!

I just wanted to add that even more helpful than picking of these three lists is to maybe edit the one you like best. Maybe you like some titles from one list and some from another... well, which ones? Which specific titles does everyone like, and which do you dislike?

By no means do the lists have to stay exactly how they are. We are free to mix and match to chose what we like best.

[ava]

For more inspiration, you can see how titles were chosen once before here:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3859171/titles.htm

And you can also look at the way the Monks and Fighters chose their titles, which I think shows a good method of collaboration:

Monks:
http://www.cosrintwo.com/forums/viewtop ... f=16&t=250

Fighters:
http://www.cosrintwo.com/forums/viewtop ... f=14&t=276

[Khaji]

Hello,

Due to your GM being missing, I will be in charge of this process of picking guild titles.
Right now we have 3 lists: the first is too repetitive in my opinion, and the second already lost a vote.
So unless real suggestions come in, we'll just vote for the third list.

So now is the time to post whatever ideas you have, so the Mages Guild will finally have titles.
I am not putting a time limit yet, but if we don't start seeing suggestions i'll put one and after that we'll run a vote.

Admin Edit: Note that Khaji's assistance here is purely OOC and should not be considered as a precursor to a Monks Guild takeover of the Mages Guild .

[ava]

I updated a few titles on the list that I proposed, based on some feedback about "of the" being too repetitive (Something of the Something of the Mages Guild). I also changed a few that I was never satisfied with, and realized (unfortunately!) that "Disiciple of the Underworld" is too many characters. :-/ Finally, I put the color codes that I proposed at the top, so if you want to see what they would really look like in game, as opposed to my vague approximation in Excel, you can.

Let me and everyone know what you like, and what you don't! I think Khaji wants to get things moving soon, so if you want to give some constructive feedback, now is the time.

Ava

[Dierdre Deschain]

I like it. It is more refined than before and appeals to my ego as a mage *grins*

[Doc]

Third list works for me.....though I would prefer we keep Sovereign to ourselves and not used by the rogues.

[Khaji]

Not a lot of new input it seems.
I'll give the guild another week, and then, Admin willing, We shall have a vote for this set of titles (Ava's latest suggested titles):

[Deesul]

I think it would take me the better part of an afternoon to explain why these complete title rewrites are so completely awful and lazy. Please try to make at least a modicum of effort or thought before you hit submit. Why is the armor theme being abandoned? This is a logical and sane progression, especially when compared to the inane, random, formulaic, and awkward propositions made thus far. Please avoid forced role situations; I should not have to explain this to you seasoned roleplay veterans. I am ashamed of your submissions - they lack any sign of critical thinking or forethought.

[Castin]

Well since this has been going on for awhile without much input from people, I for one am grateful for the people that has put effort into the titles. People have been commenting and giving advise making tweaks here and there so well done to all.

To say at this stage without any suggestions is pretty poor in my mind. Constructive criticism is always welcome.

Khaji and Ava please don't lose heart as I know from in game chats everyone is wanting the titles done finally and you two have picked this up and been discussing it with us players and staff in game and on the boards.

[Khaji]

I think it would take me the better part of an afternoon to explain why these complete title rewrites are so completely awful and lazy. Please try to make at least a modicum of effort or thought before you hit submit. Why is the armor theme being abandoned? This is a logical and sane progression, especially when compared to the inane, random, formulaic, and awkward propositions made thus far. Please avoid forced role situations; I should not have to explain this to you seasoned roleplay veterans. I am ashamed of your submissions - they lack any sign of critical thinking or forethought.

I'm afraid you've provided 0 useful input in here.
If you were to tell us which titles you like/dislike, and suggest new titles / a completely list, we can move forward.

For now it seems we do need to revise the list a little, so people may still suggest things if they want.
Either way I'll try and get a new list going.

[ava]

That hurt my feelings, Deesul.

[Jarlaxle]

I do not mind most of the titles. The only ones I can comment on really is the regular Column 1 and of course the Coven titles, as I am not Serenity or Labyrinth.

I have a couple slight issues with 2 of the Coven titles. One is Disciple of the Flame. It is more OOC issue from the past, and I do not think that one belongs here and the other is Devil's Advocate, which may I suggest changing to Soul Reaver or something along those lines, which is a title I like from one of the other suggestions. The Disciple of the Flame, perhaps Disciple of the Abyss, Pain, Suffering, Affliction, or even Torment.

The only thing I can bring up as well, which I can understand why some are still this way is the "Of the and then Of the Mages Guild". Someone brought that up already I believe.

As long as I do not see a Coven member running around as "Snake Charmer.

Jarlaxle

[Halren]

I think it would take me the better part of an afternoon to explain why these complete title rewrites are so completely awful and lazy. Please try to make at least a modicum of effort or thought before you hit submit. Why is the armor theme being abandoned? This is a logical and sane progression, especially when compared to the inane, random, formulaic, and awkward propositions made thus far. Please avoid forced role situations; I should not have to explain this to you seasoned roleplay veterans. I am ashamed of your submissions - they lack any sign of critical thinking or forethought.

The only titles that are related to the subguild portals are the following:

Snake Charmer/Hex Spitter

Bone Carver

Soulweaver/Shadowcaster

There's quite a few people who have spoken out against Snake Charmer/Hex Spitter, so while intentions were good I think you'll just have to accept a lot of people did not like the end result. I agree it would be nice if Bone Carver and either soulweaver or shadowcaster were added around GR60/65 and GR90/95, although Ava's title suggestions do have Nightmare related titles at GR90, which makes sense because that's where the Nightmare mount is unlocked.

Another criticism is the formulaic nature of some of the titles Khaji proposes to put on for a vote, I think you will find most guilds have taken this formulaic approach to titles because it is important that there is a sense of progression obvious to even those who do not know the subguild very well. A widely chosen strategy to implement this is to have lower guildrank titles (up to 100-110) be relatively formulaic where people go up in relatively easy to identify ranks, while the higher guildlevels provide the ultimate special titles. You can argue there's too much repetition, and that the difference in ranks can also be provided with unique titles that do not have this formulaic nature, and you would be right. However if you feel this way, give criticism with examples of what you would like to replace.

A constructive criticism could be the following:

There's 2x Initiate, 2x Neophyte, 2x Disciple in a row. You could put Demon Tamer and Master of Demons at GR30 and 35 because that's when you make Demon Hide armour, then make GR40 Initiate of Black Arts and GR45 Neophyte of the Darkness. (OR put a snake related title at GR45, but then pick one that people actually like). Replace Disciple of the Flame with Cursed Caster, and put Bone Carver on GR60 to 1) replace Cursed Caster and 2) have a bone related rank for the bone armour portal.

This leaves 2 titles open for other suggestions you really liked from the original list, while reducing the amount of formulaic titles AND re-introducing the armour portals, all with valid and useful suggestions that we can actually work with.

I won't even comment on the derogatory comments you made, it's obvious you feel Lothaine's titles should be implemented as they are, but the most productive course of action is to engage in conversation and debate with all your fellow mages to convince them that certain titles would fit the guild best, not to insult the actual active playerbase because they apparently do not understand your brilliance.

[Deesul]

The moment someone actually takes some time to come up with something that isn't half baked I will offer my actual critique. I refuse to spend more time on my critique than was spent thinking of the titles themselves.

Furthermore, "at least I showed up" is not a valid excuse to write poorly thought out posts and claim they are pure gold.

[ava]

You have a right to like or dislike any titles that you wish, but I would appreciate it if you didn't feel the need to insult me and my efforts as well as the input of others in this thread. You're making me, at least, feel bad for trying to contribute to our community, and I don't feel that this is helpful for the game.

[Admin]

Personal attacks and insults add nothing to this conversation. Further posts of this type will be removed and may carry additional consequences.

You are free to discuss the merits of the original titles as rejected by the guild; issues with the process and whether or not it was unfair; or, ideas and criticism of newly suggested titles - all topics which could be debated at length and should be more than enough to sate anyone's desire to be standoffish.

If you feel additional time spent providing support and criticism on these topics is a waste of yours, please remember to run your stopwatch as you draft your next post.

[Deesul]

Ava,
As we discussed in-game, this is not a personal attack on your title ideas. I am upset that instead of a discussion about replacing a few of Lothaine's titles that people specifically mentioned, like "Feral One" Serenity 130 title, people are moving to completely replace all of the submitted titles without any discussion whatsoever. I would be more than willing to discuss specific title grievances and change specific titles, using the titles you have submitted in their place.

As my attempts to communicate this so far have failed, I will no longer post here until this thread contains actual discussion about specific titles.

[Khaji]

Ava,
I am upset that instead of a discussion about replacing a few of Lothaine's titles that people specifically mentioned, like "Feral One" Serenity 130 title, people are moving to completely replace all of the submitted titles without any discussion whatsoever.

You are doing the exact same thing, instead of wanting to replace a few of Ava's suggested titles you want to replace all of them with Lothaine's list. Since I see no obvious reason why to prefer Lothaine's list besides being first, I guess we'll have to go with the general consensus and use Ava's list as baseline.

[Admin]

I would like to thank Khaji for his assistance up to this point as his help in refining the titles has been truly appreciated.

Unfortunately, due to my continued busy work schedule, our drastic difference in time zones, and his fear of or inability to use email makes continuing on this path untenable and unproductive.

Furthermore, he rightfully pointed out today that he would rather like that mages be more involved with the discussion and generation of titles.

As such, I am in the process of transitioning this responsibility to Castin such that he may continue and complete this effort.

Finally, this topic has outlived its usefulness and contains a lot of old or obsolete information. To allow for a clearer and more focused discussion to take place, Castin will be starting a fresh topic once he is settled in and has been briefed on what needs to be accomplished.